No sir (or maam), I did not create a false correlation. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. Free Pass : Professional 501(c)3 Pastoral Improper Judgement Permit Provided? I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. Perhaps the Serenity Prayer, usually ascribed to Reinhold Niebuhr, will help some of us: It was apparently his routine to engage in this life-threatening behavior during every commute to and out of Mendota. Ive had people pressure me to drink when Ive gone to parties (when they see me standing there sans drink in hand), and Ive had a few people ask me if Im a recovering alcoholic. Many Christians are allowed to live a double life because we are afraid to confront. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. How can it possibly not be idolatry to not hold accountable leadership in the church? It is crystal clear. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. What RC-Jr did was jump from one denomination to another so he could continue in his own ministry, and the denominations do not respect one anothers defrocking (although they usually respect one anothers ordinations). Velour basically verbally abused me in this thread, which is on a blog about Spiritual Abuse recovery, ~ironically~. She can correct me if I did. (And this is coming from me, who pointed out in one blog post on my Daisy Blog that I am confounded and disappointed that she and her co-blogger have prohibited discussion of codependency at their domestic violence blog.). If it was unwise youll have to help me see it. Velour wrote: I remember those days very well. My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jr's children still deal with today. Nobody blames him, but nobody fails to monitor his behavior either. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. the second half of that comment was by me, not by Jeff. Here is what he REALLY said. You assume a lot and you would be wrong. Praise God, that is truly His heart and should be ours. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Yes, he shouldnt have been on Ashley Madison, but hed lost his wife to cancer and was probably lonely. It doesnt take any effort to destroy such a lame excuse. I dont think he knows what it is to love someone other than himself, and he doesnt do a good job of even that. (If someone already said this, apologies. Some of it I dont think is fair, but there may be some merit in it. Sproul Jr. didnt hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. We ran this support group for 16 years. The same woman surgeon from before and a woman anesthesiologist and more women in scrubs packed into the OR than I thought necessary-but they have their reasons. The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics helps Christians show unbelievers the truth, goodness, and beauty of the gospel as the only hope that fulfills our deepest longings. So you fully agree with what Sproul wrote in that article? H.A. What he did was wrong. He boasts about it in his Ligonier Tales with no regret, remorse or embarrassment expressed. Im convinced thats exactly what Mr. and Mrs. (Vesta) Sproul have done to their Precious. I dont say it out of ignorance or just speculation. Hell become a sober endorser of patriarchy. (I actually read something recently that was talking about dry January or something to reset your tolerance and although Im sure that wouldnt be promoted by some, it seems like not a bad idea as far as making sure you dont actually have a problem.) He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. H.A. I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. However, it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. Maybe feeling comfortable is too much to expect when something is not ready to be shared. I think a spouse should leave and take the children (better yet kick the addict out of the house) I have seen people who lose their family and job recover and then the family can be restored. "I try, like most of us, not to be easily offended. Personally, I choose to abstain, and I wish everyone wouldn't complicate their lives with it at all. She was just the last in a long line of others before her who have brought it up. Fuss. Hes also working with the homeless as part of our parish outreach ( i.e service to others). I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldnt be necessary. Eventually I found assurance in my peace. ^The quote above belongs to Daisy, not Gail, and there was a goof in the block quotes. Alcoholics cannot be helped and wont be helped if they dont want it. A brand of churches implies plural churches like a denomination. We want it to be exposed, but we must be careful, have sources checked, etc. He pleaded no contest to one and the rest were dismissed. Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those barbs, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? Its great the people at her church were nice to her and paid for her funeral, but from what I recall of the story, she ended up dying even after entering a hospital? That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. Mr Sproul Jr has not reached the bottom. They abuse the gift of grace, and on top of that, they model that abusive behavior to people who lack discernment. Or for his wife? got the functioning of Al-Anon and sponsorship incorrectly? This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. If she were experienced her statement would have started with, As far as we know Those who do have practical experience know that its exceedingly difficult to know for certain if their alkie loved one is really dry unless that is theyre sloppy drunk with a low tolerance for the stuff, which RC Jr is not. They are quite different. He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. I posted my earlier reply to you too soon and I didnt answer your point. You tried to paint me with the same brush, but I happened to read your response and corrected you. Share Background Report Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida Phone: View phone number Age: 84 Gender: Female With RC Jr I just dont ever see him getting professional help, let alone sobering up for good. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. has sent more people to churches than churches have ever sent to A.A., just sitting in a pew is a big step for some .. the physical act of coming into what in our Judeo-Christian ethic is sanctuary, a place of safety and peace, yeah, there are times in my life when just sitting there was all I could manage. The only thing that's likely to prevent it is more public exposure. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. When he was born again by the power of Christ Jesus, he did become a new creature in Him. is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants. I need to be careful to look to Scripture for my measure of Gods Law for sin, not taking the measure from what people and tradition may say sin is. Any discussion that veers from the literal path is an attack. This comment is where you brought forward Barbaras comment about the question at issue. But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. Divorce would go beyond that to Its the end of the road.. And if it is not, then they may very well continue to self-medicate in self-destructive ways, yes. Years ago, I led a Bible study of workplace colleagues in which a young man confessed that he was struggling with excessive drinking because he was the son of an alcoholic. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). With follow-up. Im not getting the disconnect going on in this thread. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. While some people in Celebrate Recovery may advocate divorce, Al-Anon doesnt take that approach for the spouses of problem drinkers. As bad as his alcoholism is it pales in comparison to all the spiritual and emotional carnage hes caused. Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. because when a person is educated in ethical and moral behavior, they KNOW what it is and WHY departing from it is harmful and hurtful, so they are able to grow in examining their own conscience and responding accordingly .. they are able to listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and make course correction before making ship-wreck of their faith, I think solid Christian formation is far more productive and healing than the miserable anecdotes I hear about of Church discipline which seems so negative and punitive and results in public SHAMING, something that is very destructive for any person, Christian formation is education and the root of the word discipline is that one learns . There doesnt appear to be any agreement in their doctrines at all. an invitation to share his/her story. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. I feel everyone involved( church, family, job should ethically help a person reach bottom. God in his infinite mercy intervened and all three children in this home were saved. I described this happening upthread. The church as the playground of sinful social behaviors that are demonstrably harmful to others? I. And you disagree that being raised under this theological umbrella could cause problems? He agreed to go back into out patient treatment. The Bible also provides us guidelines of what it means to be a member of Christs body, understanding that certain demands are made and certain restrictions naturally apply, and certain warnings are given as well. So many changed lives. His Mom, Vida, was no prize either. My young wife used to attend a few of my classes with me. (LogOut/ Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; They should face the consequences of their actions, including job loss. I agree with what you wrote about Sproul 2 and how the different problems should be handled. I know people who are recovering alcoholics who have been diagnosed with bipolar and other problems. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. Did you miss my comment to you at 4:41 p.m. today? I also am of the opinion that alcohol does not change who a personal fundamentally is. that the only response that Barbara had was to kick Sproul out of the church. After all even a sober wolf is still a wolf who will ravage sheep if given the chance. It might appearthat his parents and family have helped Sproulcontinue on his trajectory with excessive use of alcohol as opposed to getting him the serious counseling that he needs. Bridget wrote: I sometimes walked around with a soda pop in one hand. Thats as harsh for the father as the recommendation for the son. False guilt attaches to many people in this area because some traditions have prescribed a rule against alcohol when no such law is present in the Bible. Tragically, her parents were killed upon impact, and my friend and I were pinned in the GMC pick-up in which we were riding. My friend's injuries were so severe that she was in the hospital at UNC for months and months. We ran our group from 1985-2002. As it turned out, my depression was more a symptom or a side effect, not the cause of my issues but no doctor I ever saw caught it. Find local and national death notices, funeral notices, obituaries, in memoriams, and acknowledgements at funeral-notices.co.uk, plus a directory of over 3,000 UK Funeral Directors I believe our church greatly reduced the misery of the woman who died of alcoholism. The exchange of viewpoints is very effective. What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. I am so sick of hearing excuses. I know someone who has been banned from Barbaras blog for using the term codependency, which Barbara doesnt permit. I get that church is not just a building, its people. Here is a lovely article by a Christian recovering alcoholic Heather about her journey as a Christian and an alcoholic. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). A sort of similar tale in our county. Biblical church discipline is not Dark Ages nor cruel. I was just thinking out loud. Sopy Just because this was his first arrest dont assume that this was the first time he did it. and I have a problem with the Bible. Getting him sober wont cure his personality disorders. A chemical test later revealed his blood alcohol content as 0.175, more than twice the legal limit. Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/ If sharing these ghastly pictures will convince someone not to drink and drive, I will be so grateful! I also prayed for the people who lurk here who struggle with addictions who were reeling from Barbaras words since yesterday. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. No one would have faulted Sproul for signing up for an eHarmony or Christian Mingle account. Would your answer remain the same? Velour, Im very sorry I hurt you. Many of us have suffered tragedies. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? They are not consigned to their pasts. Perhaps you are being blinded by the guys alcohol addiction. The best insights and advice a family will ever get about an alky family member is from other alkies. By the very nature of the role he occupies, he likewise claims authority over what God is or is not saying to the members of the organisation. https://cryingoutforjustice.com/are-abuse-victims-codependent/, We have never banned a person from our blog for using the word codependent. I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. WIKITREE PROTECTS MOST SENSITIVE INFORMATION BUT ONLY TO THE EXTENT STATED IN THE TERMS OF SERVICE AND PRIVACY POLICY. Or just the general run of the mill people who support patriarchy (because its what they are used to being taught)? Here is one I would suggest: "Alcohol will turn you into the same a**hole your father was.George Carlin,When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops? Sproul was born on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. The story that Friend posted about the love, care, concern, and inclusion that their church and clergy gave to a woman alcoholic member is a testament to the Gospel at work. Hyper-controlling, hyper-patriarchy, legalism. What it did do is wake him up to his own sins and cause effective change immediately. Sproul 2 is still in the throes of active alcoholism and all of its destruction. The group gathered around him to pray. You both have different and appropriate responses, so why you are putting her down is beyond me. Your use of we in your comment doesnt make sense to me because youre the only one to push the issue. But here may be a hint. Yes, you are correct I meant his own as in a new group unaffiliated with his fathers. They guy went to another church in the same denomination and auditioned or whatever you call it for the head preacher job. I also understand the difference of being the victim vs the perpetrator. TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!. It just makes me sad all over again. Alcohol abuse has played a part in that, yes, but RC Jr would have still been a spiritual bully and done the same things had he been a teetotaler too. My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jrs children still deal with today. He has used his position of authority and harmed people. and me. Can you find out for us if this was a New Calvinist takeover thing? started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. Fume. If Sproul Jr is going to go dry in the culture he built or helped to build in the first place, then hes going to have to have the motivation and gumption to change that entire culture. And regarding 1 Corinthians 5, Ps Sam Powell has preached two very good sermons about it. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. Has that been reported on or discussed? He is also charming, manipulative, an involved father and a liar. That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. When you spend so much of your life covering up sins, Im sure there is a need to numb that kind of pain. Try several different meetings and find one thats a good fit for you. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has. Being a drunkard is just a symptom of some much deeper issues. Sprouls case and how he should be treated, that I NEVER said. https://sobercourage.com/2015/07/08/because-guess-what-me-too-by-anne-lamott/, Velour said, Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church., I know that scriptures about church discipline have been posted in their proper context, even with compassion for how to treat those who have repented. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Sproul shouldnt get the consequences of his actions, including the loss of his job. It would be good if she could be more specific on what this alleged therapy is though. I have always qualified my comments with the fact that the church should seek professional help in how to deal with him and NOT handle it themselves. Sproul 2 has his own household and is not part of his fathers household. But, in the case of a person that just will not repent and get help, and they refuse to own their sin, I Cor 5 is pretty clear. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. Churches through the valley recommended us to parents of teens in trouble with drugs and alcohol. It is remarkable how LITTLE one can do for an addict if the addict doesnt want help. I do agree that people wont change unless they want to. So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? That was not my post or quote. Unbelievers have often accused Christians of Dark Ages thinking. But for a professing believer to attack other believers in such a manner is disturbing. to assemble a bevy of personal intimate liaisons, or Look at Pauls comment about a little leaven. Sproul is with the Lord now. Good grief, this is so annoying, Velour. I just learned of Sproul Jr. Today. Just my take on it. wrote: I had typical teen issues, and was so thankful (and still am) to find forgiveness through Christ. At some point, the alcoholic can drink huge quantities without seeming effect. It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. He pleaded no contest to one and the rest were dismissed. Let me explain myself. . Here is psychologist/author/cult expert/Thought Reform expert Steve Hassan explaining It was a general comment about a general topic which has been discussed before and no doubt will be again. Good point, Jeff. she advises women who are VA victims to be very cautious when choosing a MHP because most MHPs are ignorant about VA. Wow. I have put your question into a draft and will get back to you, probably as a post. You have taken this quote out of context . So Velour, I ask you to please withdraw your false statements about what we do on A Cry For Justice. I was looking for that recently. If we ban someone from our blog, we put their email address on the blacklist which means that WordPress will then automatically send any comment submitted from that email address to our Spam folder. She seems to be slowly but surely getting better. Ive read a lot of pushback to AAs all or nothing approach recently. 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.. If a person backslides then they teach this person never was a true believer really never given irresistible grace.. As you are well aware, acquainted with the sacred writings are able to make the body of Christ followers wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. I did some research. He should face consequences for it. 1. Neither one ever gave up the booze though, although with RC Srs poor health (multiple strokes) he may be drinking less than he did. Even finds reasons for crying out loud. This past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was married. He mocks people who dont drink like he does. There is no gradual progression or build-up. Vastly different things. Thanks H.A. No human is exempt and even a hint not guilty. What a terrible experience to go through so young. @ Velour: Both men have left a trail of shattered relationships. Sproul Sr. will experience MUCH MORE suffering than he is right now. It sounds to me like he has a different definition for in moderation. The prosecutor also has to agree to the terms of a plea deal and the probation report is also given to the prosecutor. To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. Velour, is there anything in our conversation that has triggered an old experience for you? Julie Anne gave you a good part of the answer. When I was 12yo I began babysitting for a family who regularly attended my church. accrue great personal financial gain from donors, or I dont like the other idea of other people having to go about on pins and needles because of my weaknesses. Well, now look at this: pic.twitter.com/KBEkiBnVkG. As such, faithful Instructions for Christ followers are provided should these unfortunate events occurs providing correction and certain training in righteous, that the body Christ followers would be built up properly unto the unity of the faith, unto to the glory of God Himself! Lea wrote: I tried really hard to help and could not. Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. your anger is showing, yes Perhaps it would be wise for RC2 to be under the oversight of a completely different church where he could be viewed as just another church member rather than RC1s son and the failed pastor. This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. Over the years we formed connections with hospitals, rehabs, special schools. I remember that you have told us this story before. Velour, please do not be so quick to assume that because someone failed to mention treatment, that they are against it. That is an important element here. They deal with mind and body, not recognizing that man is first and foremost a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body. Society meanwhile needs to jerk peoples licenses away from them and remove them from their jobs when necessary including withdrawing staff privileges at the hospital or refusing admission to the pulpit much less being a truck driver-all of it. According to Spinderella, Sproulhas allegedly been drunkdriving with his kids for years. I also think that his wife and children need help in living with a problem drinker and that the church should encourage them in this, as well as him getting treatment. So what did his parents hope to teach him from that? People from many churches came to our group . Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). ^ " ^ . RC Sproul Jr has destroyed the lives of quite a few people with alcohol, especially young men who are insecure in their manhood. You dont. instead of acting like teenage boys trying to impress each other.. I have experience. Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. So far youve been entirely nebulous about it. My biggest concern is that he'll give some time for the dust to settle and then weasel his way back into "ministry." all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. As flawed and controlling and crazy-making as that church might have been, at least most of the people there didnt strike me as malicious. No one has said we shouldnt try. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. He DOES speak of a time to cut off fellowship with a believer who does not repent of sin when someone goes to him about it. The odds of his being able to convince a jury of his innocence was remote. Today, JUNE 21, 2017, the Huffington Post ran an article called, THE SUPER PREDATORS: For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face. misunderstood her. Answer to God. You need to start your own blog really as you now look to me as though youre acting as gatekeeper/moderator here. You have taken this quote out of context . What I came back to say is that just as most Christians, churches, and Christian teaching is naive and ineffectual at tackling domestic violence, alcoholism, depression, and many other issues, that secular counseling or mainstream mental health treatment does not always work, either. The lady in the story died of alcoholism. We are the body of Christ. I have been to bars with friends and had tea and nobody cares. We were basically a para church ministry. So, his alcoholism caught up with him. It sounds so evil. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. Should the entire church have been warned to stay away from Daisy, to have nothing to do with her, and that shes probably destined for Hell (because she just hasnt gotten over it and shaped up?)? I was thanked earlier today by one of the TWW lurkers who struggles with alcohol and was terribly upset by what was said about people with this condition. 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